Pop-Up Retail and Keeping Dept Stores Relevant

[00:00:07] You're listening to retail disrupted, a podcast that explores the latest industry developments and the trends that will shape how we shop in the future. I'm your host, Natalie Berg. On today's episode, we are talking department stores and pop-up shops with David Blakeney.

[00:00:35] David is a highly experienced operator within the retail sector. He has over 35 years of experience working for big brands such as elder, duty-free, Arcadia and House of Fraser. At House of Fraser he was the store development director over seeing all space planning,

[00:00:54] design and build projects working with over 250 major brands. Recently, David was the business and store development director at Suk Retail and now he's moving on to launch a new venture which we'll hear all about later on in the show.

[00:01:10] David currently serves as an honorary officer for the 20 Club Committee and he also co-founded and ran the hugely successful House of Fraser charity event. I always have great conversations with David about department stores and how they have to evolve in order to stay relevant in the future

[00:01:28] and so it's great to finally get him on the show and to be able to bring some of those conversations to you over the next 30 minutes or so. I hope you find value in today's show and as always,

[00:01:41] if you are enjoying the content, I'd be very grateful for a quick rating review on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. David, welcome to Retail Disrupted. It's so great to see you and have you on the show today.

[00:02:02] Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be able to join you. Great. Now David, we're going to talk about your extensive career in retail from duty free shopping to department stores to pop-up shops. Your most recent role was business and store development

[00:02:17] director at Suk, the pop-up specialist, which unfortunately stopped trading earlier this year. But we're going to talk about the learnings from your time there. We're going to talk about what comes next for you and where you see the big opportunities for pop-up retail going forward.

[00:02:35] So let's start with your views on the wider retail market. We know it's a tough environment, we know it's always evolving. How is you describe the state of retail right now? You have to put two slans on it. It's challenging but then there's huge opportunities

[00:02:56] and I think that's a mixture. And that I think is going to really separate these days. The initiative and the good from the people who are more static in what they're doing and therefore the need to do more and different and experiential is formal critical,

[00:03:17] because a market is moving much quicker than ever before. When we spoke previously, you said that physical retail is on the cusp of a new dawn. I wonder if you can elaborate on this for our listeners, how do you see Brickson Order Retail evolving in the future?

[00:03:33] I think in a way, the sort of rebirth of physical and the reset for physical has had some positivity because of COVID. And I think in a way if you look at a lot of the online

[00:03:47] they thought it was going one way. Look at the share prices. There's some of the big five companies, they're 90% down on the share price. Food was up to 16, 17% online. It's gone down back to about 11 or 12%. We have 35% maybe over about 27%. I think in a inadvertently physical

[00:04:13] health, it's also pushed people now to do things in a very different way. Mary Paul, Sussan thought a year ago, I know Mary many times over the years, and I worked with her when

[00:04:25] she launched her brand in a no-house of Fraser Store. But she said a great quote, she had a year ago which I, she's the one who said the cusp of new dawn. What she was getting at was the

[00:04:37] venace on this high-performing physical retail. It's multi-sensory, it's inventive, it's instinctive shopping experiences, it's not just about selling stuff anymore, it's connecting people and creating emotional connection that is actually building the storytelling is you have the ability to story

[00:04:59] tell now. We brands and I think it was one of the best quotes I've seen, so I always quote it and I think she's bang on there. Yeah, I mean I couldn't agree more. I just think that

[00:05:10] it is kind of counterintuitive in a way that it took a pandemic and this huge shift to online shopping. It actually took that for us to recognize that they how much we love stores and the role that they play

[00:05:25] and as you say that is evolving it can't just be a place to buy stuff but it's got to be about so much more when you consider that you can buy anything with a tap or a touch of a button.

[00:05:36] Now we've got the world at your fingertips, how do we repurpose physical retail and what does that look like? I think some of the things she just mentioned, experience storytelling, the human touch, you know, marrying up the physical indigital which I know you're really passionate

[00:05:51] about that to me feels like the future that's what's relevant to customers today. So I want to stick with the theme of physical retail and get your thoughts on department stores

[00:06:02] because I know you spent a lot of time at House of Fraser and I want to ask you a very straightforward question, do you think that department stores are on the path to extinction or

[00:06:15] do you think they can still be relevant in this digital age? I think there's definitely a place for department stores. There's never going to be a place for the amount of department stores that were out there. I think the luxury spectrum without doubt yourself reducing your

[00:06:35] foreign nations without doubt have a place. I think independent department stores to a degree have a place in certain locations. They can still offer I think people want. But what department stores mainstream need is a real injection of innovation and I think they need

[00:06:56] to be extremely brave and be less traditional. I think what won't work is just walking into the same old traditional department store as we've always done. It has to be almost turned upside down

[00:07:12] and I've got quite a lot of these. The first thing you do when you walk into a department store, you see beauty. No home in that but if you're going to just see the same brands it becomes a bit

[00:07:23] mundane. It's been going for 30, 40, 50 years the same brands. What we need to see beauty has got an massive rain out of disruptive brands and it's one sector that is incredibly booming with new brands and they're just endless amount of those brands. I'd love to see department stores

[00:07:46] shape themselves up and start to put a lot of those new brands. If you walk into the store maybe if they put them down the middle and put the classic brands around the back and walk into that store

[00:07:57] and just see different things weekly or monthly basis. I mean you don't just put anyone in but it's only that compliments of big brands. It's smaller brands who've got something unique about them and something that people are looking for and they are certain new brands coming through

[00:08:15] like that where I think and maybe do it with a bit more of the digital so it tells that story through the digital screens. So there's movement when you walk in and there's newness and it's

[00:08:31] it keeps going to. The other thing about and suddenly I've worked on quite a lot is I believe that department stores just starts to look at maybe the formatting to what I call rules of. Maybe

[00:08:46] taking a floor by floor approach where why not just have instead of just having the traditional men's where ladies were start to bring areas together so I did quite a lot of work actually before

[00:08:59] left the house for days and would have liked to be involved in the implementation but I was looking at creating floors which could be a well-being floor you could put the ratio in there the sports the juice bars everything to do with well-being was on that floor and

[00:09:15] then you could integrate the new brands you're coming through. For kids and toys shape that up and have everything to do with kids and toys but make it a destination place we had a place in

[00:09:28] house a Fraser Manchester on the top floor we used to have hamlets and we'd have lots of kids but there's nothing about that floor was exciting but if you start to create theatre and almost

[00:09:42] experience his for kids for half term and school holidays make the space flexible you can have parties in there you can have a barbershop a shoe shop the barbershop can have the little

[00:09:55] error playing things and they can sit in the planes you can do a huge amount where it isn't just selling stuff they're coming in they could have a light and there an area where people have

[00:10:06] climbing you know the climbing walls and things like that just a bit of experience and then you could have and beauty could be the other thing I had mentioned about beauty I'd love to start seeing

[00:10:18] like a personal shop or air for beauty when people don't just help you for those individual brands you could have a personal shopping area and everywhere people can test and travel different products help buy people who have knowledge on all the brands not just one and you

[00:10:33] could have experiential paths and I'd love to see you walk in here more of the hair drives going on and the makeup artist and people walking around so then we'll get you made up because you're going

[00:10:46] to the theatre later so we do you know make up and get you ready to go up to the theatre and we had a whole experiential proposal we were going to have been chalding and I just think you drive that you

[00:11:00] you drive that little mini champagne bar let's just make it so good that you don't want to leave and that's for me so that's for the pot. But did you do you think that I don't know listening to

[00:11:15] what you say I sounds obvious right in some ways like it sounds like that is how any department stores should be thinking in this kind of digital era where you need to give them something more

[00:11:28] you need to get them an experience so I'm totally on board with your vision and it feels like some department stores have attempted this kind of shift to experiential shopping you know putting

[00:11:39] gins and their stores and you know restaurants and all kinds of other experiences and taking some floor space away from just products but it still doesn't seem to have really it really worked and I

[00:11:51] imagine it's not a cheap thing to do as well so do you think maybe maybe the uncomfortable truth as we just have too many department stores? No I don't think people are going far enough with it.

[00:12:03] Oh I'll give you an example you a lot of people want to put food and beverage at the back of a store and I'm like we did a trial in Manchester where we put a top brand the

[00:12:18] cool San Carlos we created a brand cool San Carlos your catty we put it on the ground floor in the corner right at the front of the store you can walk in off the street you can make it 24

[00:12:30] 7 so you can make it all not 24 them but you can close late in open early and make it out of hours but it's people who when they then come in they go in that then they come into the store

[00:12:44] you're not hiding it away or you have champagne bars in areas that are right in the middle of the floor where people can do people watching because they love doing we opened a champagne bar

[00:12:56] and bell fast in a window but it was a massive window and it was doing nothing we owned it and people love sitting there because they like watching people I don't think people are going far enough

[00:13:06] you've got to really make a statement you got to be bold and I think that's a missing bit I think people playing with it you know if you look at sandwiches and they do that corner shop

[00:13:19] it's on the ground floor and it's fantastic it's really quite interesting that's you've got to just be a bit more innovative yeah and I think you're right so which is selfish as does through a

[00:13:29] very good job I mean you can go and you do some skateboarding you can watch a movie you can even get married in a self-regist apparently so yeah I think that's probably a great example one to call

[00:13:42] out but again self-regist has a handful of stores so maybe maybe that's part of the reason why they can be as innovative and as adults in their game but they have more money as well obviously they have

[00:13:53] a bigger cafex and they are the stores will not have a other moment of the cafex and if I think stores need to do so well if we do have get some cupboards let's do it in the critical obvious

[00:14:05] areas to do yeah well if you can't do a whole store just do it in certain areas that will make a statement yeah and just spend it wisely yeah yeah absolutely just just one more point about department

[00:14:19] stores because I noticed that the old house of freezer flagship on Oxford Street has been sold and is being converted to a mixed use development and this got a lot of press a couple weeks ago

[00:14:33] when when the news came out so it's gonna have some retail space it's gonna have office space restaurants it's gonna have a gym with a swimming pool and I spoke to Nigel Audie recently who

[00:14:46] I know you know quite well is the former CEO at House Fraser and he told me that we should expect more of this kind of repurposing of space would you agree with that do you think this is how we

[00:14:57] make our high streets more relevant for today's shoppers well 100% I mean people might not remember that in 1995 or 19 or maybe 2003 sorry Dickens and Jones on Regent Street was a department store that was repurpers with a restaurant on the top floor with some offices and ground floor retail

[00:15:19] so people did start doing those sort of things else's treat is so I mean the opposite street believe it or not we didn't have the money and we didn't own the lease so we didn't

[00:15:30] have the money to do the work we wanted but we did have plans to put a major restaurant on the top floor we did have plans to have offices which were put our own office there and if you look at the

[00:15:40] plans for Oxford Street you'll see so much waste is space that was all back of house it was also about 10 million pound worth of media to do to the front of the building or the side

[00:15:50] of the building because there were lots of problems on the outside so it was capat restraint which is a real shame the long ones I think are done of putting job now or whoever's doing

[00:16:00] the work of what they're trying to re-purpose and I like that I think they've gone a bit further than others by putting in your gyms and some other things as opposed to just offices or retail

[00:16:12] or restaurants I think they're going a little bit further and doing a lot more in sin and if you look at the square footage it's going to be at least about 30% more space that they're going to

[00:16:23] claim back properly so I think it's 100% right yeah interesting so let's move on to pop up retail and as I mentioned at the start, Suc is sadly no longer trading but I imagine it was a great experience

[00:16:40] especially with so many brands looking for pop up space during the pandemic I wonder if you can share some of the key learnings from your time there and just get a flavor of how you see

[00:16:51] pop up retail today. I think the number one learning was there was definitely gaping the market for it and that might sound a bit strange when it's just run out of money but that the gap

[00:17:02] in the market it wasn't due to a lack of a gap in the market it was due to other reasons the learnings were everyone I know in the industry and customers alike absolutely loved

[00:17:16] the Suc concept it was different to any other pop up concept it was more premium and it had the ability to allow brands to make a much bigger statement then they would normally have done because

[00:17:31] they had digital screens you could convert those stores. I'm going to interrupt you for a second I'm just conscious that some of our listeners actually might not know about Suc so maybe if we just back up and you could just share some details about the concept.

[00:17:49] Yeah so Suc aim to for the premium market for brands to represent themselves for a short space of time which was meant to be a reason the anywhere from even an hour but it really, realistically it was from one day only. It had digital screens which enable brands

[00:18:13] and anyone to be able to put all their content which enable people to either story tell about the product or make it look like your own shop through the content you put through the screen

[00:18:25] and it was meant to be something that anybody could take the space to do anything anything from and it wasn't just selling even one couple got married in there they came to restore so you could

[00:18:41] even get away with it but the variety yeah the variety in the width of opportunity that came out of poppups under a suit was anything anyone anytime in any way would go and there's not one

[00:18:56] thing that wouldn't work in there if it was the right thing to put in so that's what a suit was and very very different and there's no one else like them out there. Yeah that's that's yeah

[00:19:08] that's a really helpful kind of overview for I'm just conscious we have a lot of international listeners maybe weren't as familiar as are UK ones so sorry carry on David you weren't telling me about

[00:19:19] some of the key learnings during your time at suit. So the key learnings were that it did need premium locations with high thoughtful that was for this type of concept was very important the key learnings were that maximum utility in maximum diversification in whatever you put in

[00:19:39] was critical for that type of concept it didn't have enough locations and if we only had nine or ten you need a really mass mass market of 30 40 locations so I don't think the brands quite

[00:19:57] often could use this because we were in the right place and that was one of the things that was a shame we didn't have we learned through testing trial ourselves who would work

[00:20:12] and who wouldn't and what would work and that took quite a lot of time to learn exactly what type of pop-ups were working our stores and it wasn't always the obvious ones so um the other learning

[00:20:27] was it sustainable and cost effective because you didn't have to fit it out so for the listeners the other thing is it was a fully flexible space which had not any digital screens

[00:20:39] but it had built around the screens it had um uprides which allowed you to port shells and hanging um fixtures in front of the screens so you could merchandise fully within half an hour

[00:20:54] you could turn it from a digital shop to a physical shop within half an hour and fully merchandise it because they were floor fixtures that were at the back and there was perimeter returning to

[00:21:06] uh arms and and shells so that gave it a people the ability to have a half half of ratio 20% ratio whatever they want so the key learning was flexibility of space and ease of space

[00:21:19] we made it very easy because we had a non-boarding team so you literally can pitch up bring your whatever you're going to use for the pop-up and you could be opening 30 to 40 minutes

[00:21:32] and you were fully functional and it was easy you didn't have to do much so that was a really you're making people's lives easy which is a most important thing yeah cutting friction

[00:21:42] that I'm really thinking about about retailers the need to kind of cut friction and make things as easy and seamless as possible I mean the same applies here right just you know but make it convenient

[00:21:52] make it easy and it works. The easier you make it the more successful it is and sometimes things are so obviously easy people go now can't do that because it sounds it's too easy but it's not

[00:22:05] I sometimes think they're very obvious works a lot more than trying to pontificate or make it complicated in any story I ever go to the I've always said you need good way for you it's fairing you've

[00:22:19] got to be able to find you way around so it's store you've got to find things easy that things need to be made easy from a point of even down to where the toilet's where the restaurant's where is this

[00:22:30] down to ideas is sometimes it's really simple ideas that makes it easy for customers and that's what they want and the more you make it easy the more they come back. Yeah absolutely now I want

[00:22:45] to get your thoughts on the benefits of pop up retail for the high street and whether some verticals are better suited to a pop-up setting than others. Interesting then enough I would say the most popular verticals was beauty skincare and hair care health and fitness

[00:23:08] for where athletic sports to a degree and possibly jewelry accessories and technology. Those verticals seem to be the most popular for us I think the least popular in the end was women's

[00:23:26] wear and men's wear. I think maybe because there's such a huge influx of new smaller and online businesses in those other areas who wanted to have a piece of the high street that areas that

[00:23:41] are much more booming when you look at beauty there's some great ideas on technology so just if you go through that these things like in technology there's a company called Raspberry Pi and they are brilliant support parts because they are about building your own computer.

[00:23:59] So they do a three or four day pop-up you go you chew and they go here we are we chewed yet we bought it they sell out in about three days and they go on to the next shop but that

[00:24:10] was that successful in the end I think they've actually opened a couple of stand-alone's. Unbeauty we have people like Ellen Joe who's an Irish brown top Irish skincare brand they could come over here and showcase themselves. OPI, Debonan's did a collaboration with Mac

[00:24:28] you've got some new fitness and health brands and food and drink you know if it's dry genre they'd non-alcohol it drinks people want to do something if it's genre in its back to the

[00:24:39] gym you've got the arthology people so those sorts of areas yeah and verticals were the key there's another vertical which was quite interesting and I don't think enough of the people who've done it

[00:24:53] in this sector is banking. Banking has got two positive things they're closing loads of stores so there's a gap in a market where if it goes in the stores so banks can and have done but not enough

[00:25:08] used a pop-up after they closed a high street for a couple of years use a pop-ups for customers just to get used to not being there but also they can use it for selling their services.

[00:25:21] So one thing Lloyd did it and they did something called making a statement and it was to educate the customer about if you don't read your statement you go over the drawer but you don't

[00:25:30] know what money you've got so they did a whole thing called making a statement and it was like an arthx addition in that format and so that was a great example the other thing I would like to see

[00:25:45] bankstown is support their small businesses and their sustainable businesses and this whole trajectory so if you take the other thing Hammond campaign with that West why not if you're going to support

[00:25:59] those people to market outside why not take that even further and give them a shop as well or store to operate from to promote their business you know when applicable because that whole circle then of supporting small businesses says we're a bank we lend money small businesses but

[00:26:17] we're going to support them so you know I think master card and a few other people actually did use a suit for that particular reason and it was it was really good because actually

[00:26:31] when you're walking past the shot if you're seeing five or six different businesses been supported but the name of the door was either botters on that West or MasterCod they're showing to the

[00:26:41] public we're actually being a bit more supportive there so there's a lot of that sort of support inside as well so so that was a few things so that was a few ideas of verticals yeah that's so

[00:26:53] interesting and I like the idea of a brand or a business using pop-up space to communicate a specific message so not just you know do more business with us or buy more stuff from us

[00:27:05] but to your point around Lloyd saying you know check your statement or I know Debinons had a pop-up space to promote their loyalty card so you know using it for specific use get you know

[00:27:18] the kind of flexibility allows you to do that right and reach customers in a physical setting in a very relevant way it's a marketing exercise it's a brand awareness it's a test and trial which is a massive thing it's additional space for Pete trading times like

[00:27:37] tape Pandora they take space even though they've got one in the city centre they might need the second the Fragrant Shot that might be the same they might need space custom acquisition you know is quite expensive now getting in customers online through Google and those

[00:27:53] measures but I think it's a cheaper customer acquisition of having a shot now and so do some trial on that and influencer activations it's good for research and development

[00:28:04] and the list is endless of those benefits and if I go to test and trial by the way one of the amazing things about test and trial is there's lots and lots of stores who sell more than one

[00:28:19] vertical one category shot sell accessories jewelry handbag shoes kids beauty so if it take one vertical say well we're doing really well on dresses in the summer and you're adding a new local whoever we're going to take a dress shop just because we're having a space in dresses

[00:28:42] will take a dress shop for a month to promote or some might say well the best way of customer acquisition is we want to get more young customers but their young customers are buying maybe jewelry

[00:28:51] not something else so why not take a jewelry shop and promote the fact you're doing drone jewelry get that customer acquisition and take them provide them back into your stores that's

[00:29:05] one of the things I would love to see a bit more of I think it's a really good way to do it yeah yeah super interesting now I want to talk specifically about how online retailers and

[00:29:17] online brands are utilizing pop-up space now at the start of the year I worked with the BBC on a piece about pop-ups for both TV and an article on the homepage which I'll link to in the show notes

[00:29:29] now the title of the article was can pop-up shops help to regenerate our high streets I'm not even gonna bother asking you that David because I know the answer but I want to just make a

[00:29:41] couple points now the first thing I said to the BBC was that they're used to be this fear that e-commerce would sound the death knelt for the high street but we've all learned that physical and digital retail can not only happily coexist but we're seeing this convergence

[00:29:56] between both online and offline worlds and I know that's something you're really passionate about and then the second point was just around the online to offline trend more generally because we're seeing everyone from the big giants like Amazon and Asos down to much smaller independent businesses

[00:30:14] look at all of these all of these retail is looking to open stores on the high street and for reasons that you've already touched on you know to engage with customers in a real life

[00:30:24] setting to do it with the digital screens to kind of incorporate both physical and digital and I guess if we just specifically look at pop-ups I guess what would you say David or the main benefits for online brands looking to make that move into the physical retail world?

[00:30:43] About 35 to 40% of online businesses want a space on a high street. The reason we want this space is they've realized that you cannot disel through one channel anymore you need to have various channels. Therefore the physical channel to mix with the digital channel

[00:31:06] is the best way to do it. What they get out of it is they get a much more of a they give that a customer they can drive the customer and it gives them a lot more

[00:31:20] of a feel for the brand also if them getting to know the brand you don't really know the brand in the same way because if you've got salespeople in the store they can talk more about the brand

[00:31:31] the sales of the brand so it's quite important that by having a voice you're able then to sell the brand in a very different way to online and it can be a nice thing around a little bit.

[00:31:44] It doesn't air. It does make the salespeople a bit more real and it's a great opportunity and you know they will normally mix up most online businesses what they have to do mix it up

[00:31:58] is they will have events who would have thought a small brand would have a shop on opposite streets we 400,000 people or 200,000 a week walking past. It's like dream that I got a store for a week and look at and they really push that online so those people online

[00:32:22] then go into the store and see it and that becomes a connection then so that's a main one to be honest. And then just back and buy online don't think as we know about this very well-documented

[00:32:34] halo effect where when you open a physical space temporary or permanent it does tend to drive sales online which might seem a little bit counterintuitive but to your point around brand awareness and the

[00:32:44] physical space being a form of media today it makes perfect sense. When it does but I actually believe what I'm not I think it is the opposite as well. It seems a driving one and you're going the

[00:32:58] shop and you look at it and go I'm going to buy it now so it can do the exactly version I think as much of that is happening today than the other way around. Yeah I guess ultimately it's about giving

[00:33:09] customers choice isn't it about you know shopping on their terms and choosing how and when to do the research to speak to people to read the reviews and then ultimately to make that transaction so

[00:33:20] at your point your previous point you know you do have to engage with customers in both of physical and digital setting. Now David we are coming to the end of our conversation firstly thank you

[00:33:33] so much for coming on the podcast it's been great to have you on I always enjoy our conversation so thank you again for taking the time to share your views and your experiences one final question

[00:33:44] for you David what comes next? Well after Sue I realized this is a bit gap in the market and the gap is that lamals have got space still and you've got brands who want space but

[00:34:03] if you talk to lots of people the bandwidth for both lamals and for brands they everyone's got so much on the plate at the moment a one is fighting all sorts of fires a one is really

[00:34:16] quite busy and sometimes people might have the will to do it but don't have the bandwidth to do it on both sides of the fence so with what I've done as did at Sue I just see is a great

[00:34:27] opportunity and what I want to do is continue that journey now it won't be the same as what Sue got because they had to all the digital screens but I think there's a good way that I know

[00:34:39] lots of lamals and lots of brands and I'd like to carry on trying to bring those together so I'd found a business called fidgetal retail so I now want to sort of get much more involved in

[00:34:50] helping brands and helping lamals work with each other and take the pain out for them just take on that workload and also help smaller brands I want to do who are only online who want to

[00:35:04] open stores because part my expertise was opening stores and helping them on the journey of getting opening their first store and or opening more stores that's part of my journey I did it a lot

[00:35:15] out of Fraser so it's almost merging everything I've known in the last 35 or 40 years and bringing that together in today's world fantastic David I wish you all the best with the new

[00:35:27] venture and thanks so much for coming on the show thank you very much thank you for listening to retail disrupted if you enjoyed this episode and would like to support the podcast please leave a rating review or share it with others it really makes a difference