Powering the Pop-Ups

[00:00:07] You're listening to Retail Disrupted, a podcast that explores the latest industry developments and the trends that will shape how we shop in the future. I'm your host, Natalie Berg. Today, we are talking about pop-up shops and the importance of differentiation for high street retailers.

[00:00:35] To help me with this, Matt Hopkins, founder of Indie, joins me on the podcast. Indie works with small and medium-sized challenger brands, connecting them with major retailers like John Lewis, Boots, Harvey Nichols, and Waitrose. The company operates hundreds of pop-up shops and has pioneered a unique shop-and-shop concept. Matt has over 25 years of experience in the sector and has a proven track record of developing and scaling diverse business models. Let's welcome Matt to the podcast.

[00:01:09] Matt, it's great to have you on the show today. Thanks for taking the time to be here. Can you kick things off by saying a few words about yourself and your background? Thanks. Hi, Natalie. So great to be here. It's an absolute pleasure. I'm a fan. So I'm kind of honored to be here. So thank you very much. So my background. Well, my background is in what we would refer to as licensed branding.

[00:01:33] So I've worked with some fairly big brands like Jamie Oliver, Laura Ashley, Coca-Cola, and various other brands, the Great British Bake Off, and helping those brands develop a retail portfolio for an international consumer market.

[00:01:55] And having also been a fan of trends and what's happening and sort of gazing into the future. And I was sort of fascinated. I was working on a project with one of the brands to look to develop a British-made range of products.

[00:02:17] And I don't know if I can talk about the brand specifically, but the brand that we were working with had already established itself at a mass market level, which kind of made it prohibitive for us to get the right price quality quantity ratio right, having products sourced out of the UK market.

[00:02:36] So, but I'd taken a team of, a small team of buyers off around the UK looking for willing and able British manufacturers to help us do ranges of cookware and gift items and various other things, which was no mean feat. And, but on that journey, I encountered by a trade shows and various other events that we went to loads and loads and loads of really cool, really creative, really progressive,

[00:03:06] SMEs, as we now know brands who were creating products that were, again, thinking along the lines of sustainability and what's coming down the line. So, but, and there's a big but, they all seemed to have a concurrent issue. And that was, they just couldn't get seen. They couldn't get the airtime with the retailers. They couldn't afford to go to big trade shows. You know, many of those problems haven't gone away.

[00:03:36] But so, so I set up, having seen this issue, having known that, you know, there was on one side of the fence, you've got the big high street retailers who were all looking for a point of difference or differentiation against their competition. And this quite vast network of small businesses who were effectively providing exactly what these guys were looking for, but they just couldn't, couldn't see them.

[00:04:04] So I thought, okay, let me set up a business that does that. So we act as a conduit for SMEs into major retail. So that's that kind of how my background kind of sort of started in retail too long ago. So tell us, tell us more about how it works. So what kind of brands do you work with and how do you connect them with retailers?

[00:04:27] So we now have a network of a little over 17,000 SME brands. And that's growing at, well, we get somewhere between 50 and 100 applications every week in different brands. And we have three principal models. We're developing some new things at the moment. So model one is we have a learning and resource hub.

[00:04:55] So we help signpost brands through having conversations with industry leading experts on webinars and that kind of thing. We, we signpost brands who are looking for, it might be a food technologist or it might be someone about compliance. So we help signpost brands in the direction so they can get the help and advice that they might need. We host about, well, just over 2000 pop-up shops we did last year. So the pop-up shops are shopping shops.

[00:05:24] They are pop-up shops within major stores, which typically run for a week or two where the brand is representing themselves. We do all the facilitation and take them through a fairly robust process to make sure that they're fit and ready to be in a retail environment. And then we also have a kind of a wholesale distribution model where we have,

[00:05:50] we work on tailor-made solutions with the retailers and we kind of flex and mold around what their requirements are. And some of those exist with relationships we've got with people like Ricardo, where we'll have a shop in shop model on their site. So the shoppers can shop indie and it's quite clear to the consumer that they're shopping the next cool thing from the SME kind of community. So those are, those are the kind of three main models, like I say, working on a few exciting things that haven't quite launched yet.

[00:06:19] That's really interesting and such a good point about pop-up space, not just being something for the physical world. I'd love to get your thoughts on pop-ups. There's a lot to talk about here. And I know you started the business 10 years ago. A lot has happened in that time. How would you say the industry has evolved and how has it impacted demand for pop-up space?

[00:06:42] It's interesting because where we started was very much around kind of localism. So it was a trend that we started to see in maybe food and drink really. So I think it was almost born off the last recession, if we've ever got out about the recession. I'm not sure. But where things like jam making kits were in fashion and there was that kind of heart back to real kind of nostalgia. So, but,

[00:07:11] but local and supporting local, supporting small brands within your kind of literal geographical location. But we've seen that dramatically involved. And I think, in my opinion, we do quite a lot of sort of market research surveys and that kind of thing each year. And off the back of COVID, still talking about COVID, it seemed that that dynamic changed to what we now refer to as international localism,

[00:07:40] where consumers were not, it didn't need to be physically local to them, but it was shopping to brands and products that aligned with the consumer's core values. The onset of social commerce and, you know, the way people are shopping now is so much quicker.

[00:08:03] The access to such a massive range of products from all around the world has made that transition. Localism still exists and it's not going away, but it's extended now into what, as I say, we refer to here at India as international localism. It's been really nice for us, having been banging on the drum here for probably 10 or 12 years about the importance of SME brands. And, you know,

[00:08:29] I suppose my personal passion emanates from wanting everyone to have the ability to live their dream through creating a business entrepreneurially. And whether that's making candles, whether it's distilling gin, whether it's fashion, you know, whatever it might be, it's for someone to be able to do that. And I think, you know, we go back to places like Not On The High Street,

[00:08:55] who I think really gave that first platform for businesses to do that. I suppose in many ways, Indie is the kind of traverse of that. We are on the high street. So it's bridging that kind of gap. So, and in the last 18 months, we've seen a massive market increase from consumers and then in with retailers to the demand for SME challenger brands. People want the story.

[00:09:26] You know, you only have to, you only have to visit a Christmas market to see the footfall there is just phenomenal where people are looking for those. I mean, a lot of the Christmas markets sadly aren't actually full of these things, but they, they are looking for those unique, particularly in gifting, they're looking for those unique special items with a provenance and a story that they can go back and say, Natalie, I've not bought you something off the supermarket shelf.

[00:09:51] I bought you this product and it was made by this guy in India and he whittles it with his teeth. And, you know, there's something there that you can really kind of latch onto and it's, it's more memorable and more authentic. Yeah. And then I guess something that luxury retail has always done really well, which is making it more about the experience than the product or as much about the experience as it is about the product. And I think it's just interesting with the sort of democratization of technology, as you talked,

[00:10:20] as you touched on the rise of social commerce, you know, it's, it's becoming so much more accessible for smaller brands to play in that space. And I recently had Charlotte Broadbent on the podcast and she runs fair in the UK, which is the B2B marketplace for independent retailers. And she talked a lot about leveling the playing field and, and something you just mentioned reminded me of something she said, which is that they have filters on their website where you can, you know,

[00:10:49] buyers can search for products based on, you know, whether they're organic or locally sourced. But she said one of their most popular filters is not on Amazon. And I thought that was really interesting because I think it shows that retailers, you know, retailers are looking for more authenticity, you know, for greater differentiation, as you just touched on more purpose. And they, they, they recognize the need to have that really deeply curated range of products in their stores.

[00:11:15] And as you just also touched on shoppers want to align themselves with brands whose values are reflect their own. So I think it's definitely something that I think's gained momentum in recent years. And I think we've, we've got kind of two distinct stakeholder groups in one is, the retailers and the other is, is the brands. And they, they both kind of need the same thing,

[00:11:43] but with everything that's happening within the high street, you know, we talk about the high street, the retail arena, the way we're shopping has, has transformed dramatically. And there was a moment in time, not that long ago where independent retailers were, you know, waxing lyrical about how the out of town stores were dragging people away from the, the high street and how, if you like, forgive me, Natalie,

[00:12:13] but the Americanization of British shopping was, it's always been a, no offense taken by the way. No, no, no, it's right. But it's, it's always been a leisure activity in the UK. It was always like, you know, Hey Natalie, let's go and meet for lunch and we'll do a bit of shopping and we'll do. So it's always been kind of combined in that way where I think the, the kind of big box out of town sort of retailing was quite very, was very functional,

[00:12:41] but was almost purposefully designed for an American consumer where it's big cars, big fridges, big everything. And, you know, that sort of works. Whereas I think we lost quite a lot of the DNA here. And as you well know in, in that, so what is shopping is the question now. And, you know, we do a lot of work with people like John Lewis and yeah,

[00:13:10] you can shop online and you can find what you're intentionally looking for, but there is something fabulous about browsing around really great store, whether that's a small, fantastic independent shop or whether that's a, you know, a beautiful, expensive department store. And, and I think the consumer wants that. Yeah. And I completely agree. And I'm glad you touched on this issue of homogeneity because I think that's

[00:13:38] something that pop-ups really helped to combat in that, you know, having a pop-up shop on your high street can really inject excitement and character and, you know, give shoppers something new. And, you know, there's, there's lots of benefits. I mean, I often get asked, are pop-up shops still relevant today? What's sort of the future? And I'd love to put that question to you, Matt. I mean, do you think they're more relevant in this digital era? And what are the main benefits both for retailers and brands? I think, I think they are, I mean,

[00:14:08] we've been doing this now for, let's say, nearly 10 years in pop-up. And the demand and the interest from consumers is absolutely increasing. But the way we deliver it, the sophistication of it is, is changing. And there's lots of places that are doing pop-ups now. And it's become a bit of a thing, which is great. But, but I do think now that some of the conversations are very interesting conversations

[00:14:38] I'm having with some of the big retailers about bringing that experiential activation into the stores and making it an impact or thing, because of course there's, it's very low risk for the retailers. You know, it's a great way for them to experiment with, with brands, with products, with categories that perhaps they're not embedded in. We have lots of conversations with different retail buyers who, who want,

[00:15:04] they've been toying around this kind of products or that product, but it's, it's quite a big commitment for them to range, fully range a product without having a bit of proof of concepts in initial. So there's this, there's this, it's multifaceted. It's how can we bring big events into store that are in and out quite quick. And of course, one of the big advantages of the pop-ups is that when we talked about social commerce earlier,

[00:15:31] the speed of trend changes now is light years, not light years, it's beyond a typical retail buying cycle. You know, those days of, we do an autumn winter range, we do a spring summer range and we buy kind of 12 or 15 months in advance of that. That's gone. You know, it's instant now, isn't it? It's, yeah, it's phenomenal. You know, something might be trending on TikTok this week and in two months time, it's yesterday's fish paper,

[00:16:01] as they say, but pop-ups are absolutely not only here to stay, but I think you're going to see more and more advancement in what and how they are delivered. Yeah. Just to kind of build on that point, I think they are very relevant for this digital era because, you know, sometimes pop-ups do lead to permanent retail space, whether that's a concession and a department store or permanent store locations. And what's interesting is if you look at the whole online to offline trend,

[00:16:29] especially for those direct to consumer brands, I think Trini London is a great recent example of this, you know, a brand that's, you know, started life online, experimented with pop-up space, had a concession in John Lewis and, you know, now has permanent stores. The role of the store isn't just about shifting product, as we've been saying for a while, it's, it's a, it's a form of media these days. So I'd just love to get some thoughts from you on this. How important is it for those digitally native brands to have some kind of physical presence today?

[00:17:00] I wish I'd looked at the stat before, we came on the podcast, but we did do some research last year, and it was a high percentage of brands who are predominantly online only, who want to get that either first embarkation into a bricks and mortar environment, or they simply never have. So the, and a lot of our brands are relatively small from, you know, if you look at a product lifecycle curve,

[00:17:30] if we take brands in pop-ups, to a, um, the entry, the new to growth phase. And it's great because it's, uh, you know, the QDOS has been associated in a, a major retail store that we've, we've managed to place them in. The big advantage to them is one, the QDOS. Two, it's the direct interaction with their target customer, which is, which is, we've seen significant, um, feedback,

[00:18:00] really positive from brands who said, I've actually spoken, physically spoken to my customer and I've changed my packaging, or I've changed a few things on our website, or my pricing architecture wasn't quite where I think it, or I've increased my prices even. Um, so it's quite interesting, you know, coming out into the real world and, um, and actually speaking to customers. Yeah. And, and I, I guess another added benefit too, is that kind of elusive halo effect that we often talk about where

[00:18:28] customers interact with a brand in a physical way, and then they often go back online and shop with them in an online setting. So it just shows that, you know, we just want to shop how we want to shop. Right. And, and I think retailers having a presence physically and digitally and marrying that up is, is hugely relevant. Yeah. And we see bigger brands as well now who are starting to say, actually this pop-up trend is, is really interesting. So we, we do get approached by some big brands who are saying, actually, we'd quite like to be involved in, in the pop-up shops.

[00:18:58] Uh, it's not just about small and local. It is just about the experiential thing. It's reminding customers who they are and touching and feeling, particularly with those products that predominantly might be purchased online. Let's talk about those SME challenger brands. What role do they have in driving innovation in the industry? They're leading it. They are so creative and so agile because they have to be right. They have to be to, to, to compete in a,

[00:19:26] in a really noisy world. And an increasingly noisy world, they have to. So lots of the brands, you know, stick with our kind of sustainability. They are the ones who are experimenting with different materials. They're experimenting with different kinds of products, mixes and so on. So the small SME challenger brands are the ones who are driving change. And, you know, one of the roles that we play as indie is, um, observing what's going on, what is trending.

[00:19:56] And I suppose there's two different parts of that. There's what, that there are trending brands. So what's might be trending on, you know, one of the social channels and what products, um, might be in trend or on trend rather. So we are close observers of what's happening in the kind of trend arena. Um, so that we can react really, really quickly. And, you know, retailers do jump to us and say, we're seeing this, are you,

[00:20:24] can we get those kinds of products in store quite quickly? They're more agile. They're more able to respond to changes, but what challenges are they facing today? Pricing. Is it obviously a big, a big challenge for a small brand? Trying to get that, uh, economies of scale balanced is, is always, is always difficult. I mean, apart from, you know,

[00:20:49] obviously we talked earlier about the solution that indie plays in helping get a visibility and a voice to those small brands. It is very interesting because we often ask the brands through our various surveys, you know, what, what do you need? How can we help? And often the answer is, can you get me in touch with so-and-so and so buyer? Um, and of course, yes, we can in some cases, but of course the, the buyers are inundated anyway. Um,

[00:21:17] but they need to be prepared for what comes next. And, you know, have they done the research? Have they, are they ready with their, their pricing or can they get to a certain level of pricing, um, to compete? So once we move a brand outside of the pop-up world, because me stood on a pop-up stand selling my widgets to you, um, and the story that goes, it's quite compelling. And often the price is less critical to the,

[00:21:47] to the transaction because you're bought into the story. As soon as that product is moved away from that pop-up environment and onto a normal shelf, and you're competing directly with more mass produced products, then it becomes, you know, you're back to the same issue of pricing. So pricing is, is, is always a big, a big challenge. We, we wrote a white paper last year about, uh, advising our SME community to not get involved in Black Friday.

[00:22:16] Just stay away from it because it's just, um, it's a race to the bottom and it's not designed for, um, for SME brands. It's, it's designed for big, you know, tech companies and, and, and whatever to, to compete. So, you know, choosing the arena that you want to compete in is, is, uh, a big and important decision that a small brand needs to make. Yeah. And that ties in nicely with, uh, your early,

[00:22:43] earlier point about sticking to your values and conveying that to the customer. And, you know, I think the kind of fatigue and backlash around Black Friday is justified. And as a small brand by not participating in it, I think that sends a really clear message, um, to the customer as well. So I, yeah, I think that's, that's another interesting thing to watch is certainly something that's, gaining momentum. The window for that, for those brands, it will come. Now, unfortunately,

[00:23:12] Black Friday is not just that last Friday in November anymore. It's this elasticated kind of sales period, which is confusing for everybody. There will, there is that window for once Black Friday eventually finishes. Can customers then are shopping for those meaningful gifts, meaningful products, which is where I think our brand community gets their time in the sun. So it's really where those brands can step forward and, and tell the story and, and,

[00:23:41] and portray the authenticity of the products that they, that they make and love and produce and go back to our kind of all our community living their kind of dream. It's what we want people to do. Fantastic. On that note, Matt, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been great to speak to you and all the best. Thank you, Natalie. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to Retail Disrupted. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support the podcast,

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