What Every Retailer Should Know About Accessible Shopping | Mark Webb

[00:00:00] We want to be represented and we want an easy shopping experience. Despite us being 20-25% of the population, 2% of advertising features disabled people, 2% of TV programs and films involve disabled people, and 1% of TV programs involve a lead character who's disabled.

[00:00:22] We want to be seen. I don't mind if you're cold and practical and just saying, oh, bloody hell, we need a wider aisle and we need people trained because we've got to deal with the bloody disabled people. Well, fine, but make money out of us because we're there to spend. I just want a pleasant accessibility experience, but also people not looking the other way. Just coming over, not grabbing my wheelchair and pushing me around, but just saying anything I can do to help, sir.

[00:00:51] You're listening to Retail Disrupted, a podcast that explores the latest industry developments and the trends that will shape how we shop in the future. I'm your host, Natalie Berg.

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[00:03:01] On today's episode, you're going to hear from Mark Webb. Mark is a former retailer and a disability advocate. He's going to share his personal story of living with MS. We're also going to talk about accessibility and how Mark thinks retailers can create more inclusive spaces. If you haven't already, please do hit that subscribe button. Every week we speak to the leaders and disruptors that are shaping the future of retail.

[00:03:28] And your subscription really does help the channel to grow. Mark, welcome to the show. It's funny because, well, it's funny, isn't it? Because we've been connected on social media for years and years. And this is actually the first time we're speaking directly. So it's really great to have you here. And I'm glad we're fixing that today and getting you on the show.

[00:03:54] So just to get us started, Mark, can you tell our listeners and viewers a little bit about yourself and your background? Yes. So in retail terms, I spent a fabulous 11 years at DSGI, which became DSG International, which became Dixon's Retail, which became Dixon's Car Firm, which became Curry's.

[00:04:18] Prior to that, I was in entertainment and leisure at David Lloyd Leisure for three years and Disneyland Paris and the Walt Disney Company for 11 years where I met my beautiful wife. I'm medically retired nowadays. I'm a public speaker and a disability advocate.

[00:04:41] I retired when my flavor of disability got progressively worse. I have multiple sclerosis. So we're going to get into all of that, as you say, because there's lots to explore there. I guess just to start with Dixon's, which, as you say, is now Curry's. You worked for three different CEOs during your time there. So you worked for John Clare, John Browett and Seb James, who then went on to become the CEO of Boots.

[00:05:10] I know you saw a lot of change in that time, but take us back to the early days. What was it like when you joined? What kind of shape was the business in? It was a very 80s business. And I don't want to be so too critical of John Clare because he was a wonderful chap. But it really was Monday morning at 6am meetings.

[00:05:35] John Clare had had a fax sent to him over the weekend, over the Sunday night with all the results. And basically, Monday morning is what sold well, which didn't. OK, we need to advertise these, this double page spread in the sun. And that's our plan for the week. And that was about as, I'm slightly exaggerating for effect, but that was about as complex as it got.

[00:06:05] It was just advertising and marketing was a thing, but not really. There was half of somebody in analytics who worked half a day. And that was it. It was a very different time to the one I grew into. Yeah, yeah. It's really hard to imagine. I mean, just the word fax machine is something we don't hear about anymore. So that's interesting. So then you spent 11 years there.

[00:06:35] And obviously, you know, Amazon, online shopping, all of that was sort of really starting to take off. So how did the business progress? And how did kind of leadership styles change with the new CEOs? Well, so first of all, John Brown, he had come from Tesco.com. He had basically built that.

[00:06:55] And they had held him to his notice period because, of course, Tesco were, they're not so big now, but they were big into electricals at the time. So that actually gave John this fantastic opportunity to travel around the world and look at all the best electrical retailers. So Media Mart, Best Buy, which, of course, has its own story in the UK.

[00:07:22] But he just took so many ideas from there and really went heavy on the transformation of the business.

[00:07:33] And John often said that he wouldn't have been able to go as fast and as hard and as urgently and as pressuringly with the transformation if it hadn't been for the fact that there was a serious recession on big downturn and then the arrival of Best Buy on our shores. So it was a massive period of change.

[00:08:02] John Clare and the whole business, you probably didn't go into any of these shops, but they were not built customer friendly. They had a race, basically what was called a racetrack around the building. So you could get across, but basically you followed it almost IKEA wise until you found what you needed to buy. And the hope was that you would buy other shit on the way around. But I wasn't very customer friendly.

[00:08:33] So John Browitt was very much about store transformation. Any spare money that had been left post free serve had been used for share buybacks and no store transformation whatsoever. Other than the Curry's Digital fascia in the high street.

[00:08:54] But suddenly we had these straight sight lines, these adjacencies for different categories, just all making it so much more customer friendly. And if you do remember Dixon's and Curry's and PC World of the noughties, we had an awful customer service reputation.

[00:09:18] So there was enormous effort into training employees to give good customer service. We got rid of commission, which wasn't particularly popular, but it meant that it wasn't a hard sell when you got in and you were sold the right stuff, not the most valuable to the employee stuff. But big changes delivered very quickly. Yeah. Wow. That's really interesting. And I'm just thinking about Curry's today.

[00:09:47] And it's my favorite, hands down, my favorite retailer on Instagram because they just smash it. They just, the content they're pumping out, it just feels so relevant. And I just, it's interesting. I know this is kind of post Mark Webb days, but it is interesting to see how much that business has evolved over, you know, the past 15 years or so. So, yes.

[00:10:08] And sorry, and so just on that point before you go on to the next question, it amazes me that, you know, John Browett was all about transformation. Seb James was all about transformation. And then the next guy who is now going on to Boots, where Seb went to, he's all about transformation. So it's been a constant evolution of a business.

[00:10:32] So let's talk about your time at Dixon's because you helped turn Seb James into the most followed FTSE 100 leader on X, which at the time was Twitter. And it's kind of hard to really remember what that time was like. Like seeing a business leader on social media was really unusual. And Instagram probably wasn't really around. We definitely didn't have TikTok. This was pre-Elon Twitter. It was a very different space and a different time.

[00:11:00] So I'd love to know, like, what was the thinking behind getting him on Twitter? And, you know, how did you convince him to do it? I didn't. So actually, what Sebastian James wanted was the non-fresh paint version of his stores and the feedback from his employees. So before I started working with him on this, he had started Twitter to talk to his employees.

[00:11:27] So he got the unvarnished truths and their issues direct from them rather than via the manager and the area manager and the divisional manager, etc., etc. So actually, he had started it quietly. And then people like Tim Danaher, who was at the time a Retail Week editor, discovered him and just found out it was fascinating watching these.

[00:11:56] Because you don't see that. You don't see an unvarnished chat between a FTSE 100 CEO and a ground floor employee. So it started tractioning before I got involved. Interesting. I did not know Tim Danaher was involved. It is interesting, isn't it? Because there's a great stat from the FT, which is that only a few years ago, about 15% of, I think it was FTSE 100 CEOs were on LinkedIn.

[00:12:25] And now it's 85%. So I know that's a separate platform and maybe a little bit, I don't know, better suited for business leaders. But it's just interesting, this huge shift we've seen from a comms perspective and transparency and authenticity and relatability. All of that's becoming so important for business leaders. Absolutely.

[00:12:44] So LinkedIn at the time was a bit of a fight between me wanting to put out results and new store openings, new partners, whatever. And HR wanting to do the kind of stuff that LinkedIn is used for. And Sebastian, to my recollection, was on it, but very rarely. So Twitter was such a powerful tool.

[00:13:12] I can't bear to erase my Twitter following, but I don't use it except to retweet the odd anti-Trump stuff, knowing I'm not going to the USA anytime soon. So I don't use it as I did. But at the time, it was a fabulous tool to talk to journalists.

[00:13:34] I was much closer to journalists on my little keyboard, as opposed to when I'd been on the phone in dodgy Himmel-Hempstead and making the odd trip into London. Yeah. And a long way from the fax machine days. Yes. And I'm sure John Clare still uses fax machines. Okay.

[00:13:59] So, Mark, you were at Dixon's in this pretty high-pressured corporate role when you were diagnosed with MS. And I know you had experienced symptoms for a long time before the diagnosis. So can you take us back to that period and what the experience was like for you and how the journey has been? So my first symptoms coincided with the opening of Euro Disney, now Disneyland Paris, where I was working.

[00:14:29] And if you look at the picture there, I'm at the front holding Mickey's hand. And behind me is Michael Jackson. My first job at Disneyland Paris was looking after A-list celebrities. So I looked after Kevin Costner, Clint Eastwood, Gloria Estefan, Michael Jackson, the most bonkers three days of my life.

[00:14:55] Just, I had an amazing first introduction to the world of Disney and pink and four-foot mice. But I also got pins and needles right down my left-hand side for three days, which then went away. And I was in my mid-twenties, so I ignored it and got on with life, chasing girls and chasing beer and running after celebrities.

[00:15:22] I then started stumbling on my left foot every so often. I had bladder issues, which in France, luckily I was living in France, so I could visit every tree because every other French man did that. But, you know, various accidents and whatever. But I still didn't put things together until my wife persuaded me to go to the doctors.

[00:15:47] And I went when I was about, I don't know, two years into my Dixon's journey. And even diagnosis takes a few months. You have an MRI scan. You have a lumbar puncture, which I wouldn't advise you taking. It's horrible. And, yes, I was diagnosed with MS.

[00:16:12] And I'd love to know how it's changed your day-to-day life, because I know you're in a wheelchair. Is it full-time? Yes, I'm in a wheelchair. No, I'm not going to do it. But if I wanted to, I could get up and wave my catheter in front of you, because I now wee out of my tummy to stop accidents. But I'm a full-time wheelchair user. I have chronic fatigue. So chronic means forever.

[00:16:42] So I start my day on three out of ten battery and get worse. So this half-hour chat will exhaust me for the day. But such is life. I can't work anymore, apart from public speaking. But I've had a brilliant, brilliant life. And I read somebody saying about, why me, yesterday? And I said to them, why not me? I've just had a brilliant time.

[00:17:12] And now I just roll around having a brilliant time. And I was going to say, it doesn't seem like it's stopped you from advocating. I know you also play rugby. You've done indoor skydiving. How has it sort of changed your outlook on life?

[00:17:31] Well, given my message advancing fairly quickly, it's made me think very short-term about what next adventure I can do. How can I raise money? Where's my next public speaking gig? I've still got so much to do. And I'm currently writing a book about my adventures. And I've done my Michael Jackson chapter. That's bonkers. But I've just had a wonderful time.

[00:18:00] But I'm not stopping. I just do different things. Like you said, I played wheelchair rugby. I know I look 21, but I'm actually 57. And I retired from wheelchair rugby when I was 54. So because of my MS, I was playing contact sport up till the age of 54. And if I hadn't had MS, I wouldn't have been playing a contact sport.

[00:18:26] So, you know, I wish I wasn't disabled, but sod it. Yeah. And what's something that you wish more people understood about living with MS? As we take part in trials and more drugs get discovered, it's not all about wheelchairs. And most people with MS, it's invisible, just a walking stick or it's eyesight issues and whatever.

[00:18:51] So it's called the snowflake disease because not one of us out of the millions across the world have the same version. So. Okay. I didn't know that. Please. No, just please don't make assumptions about MS. You've seen one MS person. You've seen one MS person. It's not that you suddenly understand MS.

[00:19:12] I'm more of a disability advocate now than an MS advocate because disabled people represent 20 to 25% of the population in the UK, depending on how you measure it exactly, which makes us the largest minority. So it's just so neglected. Despite us being 20 to 25% of the population. 2% of advertising features disabled people.

[00:19:41] 2% of TV programs and films involve disabled people. And 1% of TV programs involve a lead character who's disabled. 2%. And we want to be seen. And we want to be represented. And we want an easy shopping experience. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's shocking. It's shocking statistics. And I think you're right about representation in the media. I have an autistic child.

[00:20:11] And what you just said about if you've met one person with MS, you've met one person with MS. I copy replace with autism. It's very, you know, it's very individual and complex and also invisible in many ways. So I can relate to some of what you said as a parent of an autistic child. And I think you're right. I think representation is so important. I've been loving watching The Pit, which is like the new ER. I don't know if you've seen it.

[00:20:40] It's got a neurodivergent doctor, but it's not the typical neurodivergent representation. It's all the things where if you understand neurodiversity, you get the oversharing, the overwhelm. It's very subtle. But I just love that just from a representation point of view. I've been loving the TV series because of this one character. It's also Bryan Cranston's daughter from Breaking Bad. So there's a random fact for you. There you go.

[00:21:08] As I was looking at the stats, I saw that neurodivergency, is that a word? Yeah, neurodiversity. Neurodiversity is even less representative than, you know, disability. And, you know, autism is a disability. Yeah, yeah. And I guess that kind of brings us to your career. And I know you were really vocal about how well you were treated at Dixon's.

[00:21:35] And it sounds like that's maybe not the norm for disabled employees. So can you tell us a little bit about that time and how you were accommodated? Yes. So the first, you know, major transition was just when I was diagnosed. And that was a huge shock. My wife remembers lots of tears. I don't remember that, but I do remember feeling very dumb and contacting my boss and saying I'd take a couple of weeks off just to acclimatise.

[00:22:03] When I got back, the team around me had actually researched into MS and understood at least some of the symptoms that I might be experiencing and the psychological impact of MS. And that was just wonderful because I could just carry on.

[00:22:25] I could start making my bad dad jokes about MS and disability and wetting myself and whatever else I wanted to joke about. And I could just carry on with them at the time. And in fact, I was promoted to the head of comms for the whole group during my MS. So that was just wonderful because, and this was the topic of my TEDx talk,

[00:22:53] was about people drifting away when you are diagnosed with any condition because people don't want to talk to you because they feel awkward. They feel embarrassed. They don't know what to say. They're scared of saying the wrong thing. They'd rather dance on the table with somebody who's non-disabled, drink tequila, etc. So people drift away and genuinely they do. And in wider parts of the business that happened.

[00:23:21] And there were people that as soon as the word got out that I never spoke to again, well, they never spoke to me again. And that's not just going for disability. That goes for cancer diagnosis, divorce, bereavement. In my TEDx talk, I talked about somebody who experienced child loss. And I didn't, I feel so guilty. I didn't talk to them because I felt awkward.

[00:23:50] And, you know, years later now, I feel so awful about that. But it's a thing. So that would be my first lesson for anybody out there is we're still human. We still want to laugh in a conversation. And we're still the same person as we were. But anyway, MS is a progressive disease. And by the time I got to, I think, walking stick stage,

[00:24:18] my boss got me in a room. And I was expecting either the guilty check, as in, there, there, Mark, have a year's salary and sod off, or being made something like chief photocopier, as in, you know, put in a corner where the company didn't have to think about me anymore.

[00:24:42] And actually, what happened was they sat me down and said, Mark, you're not going to be able to cope. So very nice terms, but paraphrasing. You're not going to be able to cope much longer with this high pressure job. What can we do together to create a role for you that works for you and your condition, but allows us to still have a real piece of work?

[00:25:08] And that was when Twitter was emerging as a real powerful tool. And we suggested the head of social media, a head of group social media. And I went to it. I had to go home in tears that day because I was so emotional about what they'd just done for me, which was just, it was just being human and normal. It wasn't, it wasn't spending money.

[00:25:35] It wasn't building a lift for me or anything expensive. It was just being creative together. And like I said, we made Seb the most followed CEO on Twitter. And I was responsible for that, for Dixon's Retail's Twitter feed and my own one. Yeah. In a way that suited your needs at that time. And I think the flexibility and compassion, all of that's just so important.

[00:26:05] It was absolutely wonderful. And I won't buy from John Lewis or from Amazon anything electrical. I will always buy from Curry's. And I still buy my warranties from Curry's. I still follow them. I'm like a free of charge ambassador for the company because of people who have left years ago because of how they treated me. It's just such a feel-good story. So thank you for sharing that.

[00:26:32] I also wanted to get your thoughts on, and then I will let you go, Mark. I'm conscious of, I don't want to tire you out and keep this too long. So I would love to get your thoughts on retail though, because I know you do feel passionately about how retailers can offer a more inclusive experience. There is the whole purple pound, which is, I think, getting more press than it used to, which is fabulous.

[00:26:56] But disabled people in the UK have a combined spending power of £446 billion per year. No, that was the old number. Is it the old number? Oh, correct me, please. I think 660, well, anyway, look, I take that with a pinch of salt because I think that includes, so that number is every, any household involving, including a disabled person. So that would be your household and my household. Okay.

[00:27:24] So I take that number with a pinch of salt because not everybody who is disabled thinks of themselves as disabled. And not every person requires any accommodation, but it is still gazillions. And as we said earlier, we are not advertised to, we are not featured in TV programs.

[00:27:48] We are not featured in mainstream life because we're kind of forgotten about and we're now a burden on society, etc., etc. We're twice as likely, more than twice as likely to be unemployed as a disabled person. We have money. Look at my lovely house. I've got a lovely lantern above me there, which we built. I have spending power and I want to shop. I want to buy nice stuff.

[00:28:17] I want to have a good time. I spend more money on restaurants and theatre experiences than retail per se, but I still spend money. And when I go, I spend, I go to the VIB bit. So, and I'm not catered for. So I want shops to have staff trained to deal with customers. I want basic accessibility.

[00:28:45] So, oh gosh, what's the new WH Smith in the high street? ID Jones? Oh, TJ Jones. TJ Jones. There's plenty of TJ Jones. I know I can't even get into because of the thin aisles. It's just crazy that a large section of society is excluded from doing a pastime, which is not to be nice. It's to make money out of us.

[00:29:15] And I don't mind if you're cold and practical and just say, oh, bloody hell, we need a wider aisle and we need people trained because we've got to deal with the bloody disabled people. Well, fine, but make money out of us because we're there to spend. So I do buy from Amazon my clothes because it's so hard work to get out to shop.

[00:29:38] But I just want a pleasant accessibility experience, but also people not looking the other way. Just coming over, not grabbing my wheelchair and pushing me around, but just saying anything I can do to help, sir. So do you think training is a big part of this? Yes, absolutely. And awareness. Like I said, you met one MS person, you met one neurodivergent person, and you won't understand everything about disability.

[00:30:08] But you do need to understand the general accessibility needs of the average disabled person. I'd love to know how you'd rate retailers' progress on this compared to maybe just 10 years ago. So that's one thing I'd like to ask you. But I guess before you answer that, it feels – and maybe I'm looking at it from a neurodiversity perspective, which I appreciate is very different, although there's probably some overlap there.

[00:30:32] But I think if you look at Sephora, for example, they just started doing quiet hours because it's like sensory overload. So I have ADHD. I probably should have said that earlier. And I don't really need any accommodations, but I hear everything. That's – for me, I can get overwhelmed with all. Like I can hear – if I'm in a restaurant, I can hear things happening in the kitchen. I can hear other people's conversations. And I come home and I'm just exhausted because I just take it all in. Like there's no filter.

[00:30:59] So I love that some of these stores are starting to do quiet hours. And I guess that's a fairly simplistic but maybe really impactful thing. So I'd love to get your take on, I guess, retailers' progress. And I'll make this a final question, Mark, because I am conscious of your time and energy that we've used today. How would you rate retailers' progress? And I guess if we were speaking to a retail CEO, what more can they be doing? I follow Curry's very closely.

[00:31:26] And since working with them, I've seen that they've got a whole community of disabled people working for them. And I'm sure that a lot of them existed before, but they've now been brought together. And that's very important to employ disabled people, preferably at the top. And God knows about the board level. Disabled and neurodivergent percentages, it's appalling.

[00:31:55] There are things being done. There are a good few quiet hours. I do see, I can smell better training sometimes when I go out in shops. I can just tell, basically because they're nice, but just I can tell when people have been trained. And there are apps that we can use to pre-inform a store that we're on our way and what special requirements we have. That's great. I didn't know that. Yeah.

[00:32:24] So, welcome, for example. Wellco.me. You can say, yeah, I've got a wheelchair. Sometimes I might need an emergency loo, blah, blah, blah. So, yeah. And some stores are using that. I would give retailers four out of ten for better employment opportunities. Two or three out of ten for actual action on the ground floor.

[00:32:54] And one out of ten for advertising. Wow. So, a long way to go. Yes. Yeah. Great. Well, listen, Mark, it's been so nice to speak to you. Thanks for being so open and sharing your MS journey. And I hope we'll get the chance to meet in person someday. Thank you for listening to Retail Disrupted. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support the podcast, please leave a rating or review. Or share it with others.

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