Perpetual Innovation with ex-Pandora and The Body Shop Boss

[00:00:00] You're listening to Retail Disrupted, a podcast that explores the latest industry

[00:00:05] developments and the trends that will shape how we shop in the future.

[00:00:09] I'm your host, Natalie Berg.

[00:00:16] On today's episode I'm going to be sharing my fireside chat with the Xbox of Pandora

[00:00:21] and the Body Shop, Jeremy Schwartz.

[00:00:24] My conversation with Jeremy was recorded live on stage at the Richmond Retail and Ecommerce

[00:00:29] Directors Forum.

[00:00:30] This episode is available in both audio and video formats so if you prefer to watch the

[00:00:35] discussion, you can pause now and head over to YouTube.

[00:00:39] Now a little bit more about Jeremy.

[00:00:42] He was the turnaround CEO of Pandora, the world's largest story company with 2500 stores

[00:00:48] and e-commerce sites in 90 countries.

[00:00:51] Prior to that, Jeremy was the chairman and CEO of the Body Shop from 2013 to 2017.

[00:00:57] He also previously spent time at St. Spurries and as brand director, he was the architect

[00:01:02] of the Grocer's turnaround in 2005 which saw a decade of growth after years in decline.

[00:01:10] He is the former managing director of L'Oreal UK and as innovation director for Coca-Cola

[00:01:16] Europe, he invented Coke Zero.

[00:01:19] Jeremy is currently the chairman of Cantar Sustainability Transformation Practice so

[00:01:25] as if we didn't already have enough material to delve into.

[00:01:29] We're also going to be talking about ESG and what retailers can do in this space.

[00:01:34] Lots to discuss and I really hope you enjoy this conversation.

[00:01:40] There are a lot of retailers and brands out there that are still finding life difficult

[00:01:44] and I think what we're seeing is that even if these are much loved brands,

[00:01:48] even if these are brands with a ton of heritage, they're not immune to the challenges facing the

[00:01:54] high street. I'm not going to name a shame but it's talked out there for some brands.

[00:01:59] As a turnaround specialist, what is it that these businesses are getting wrong?

[00:02:07] On the turnaround of the sales was in the turnaround of Pandora and if you after this

[00:02:10] have a look because frankly the turnaround both of those surprised me at the speed with which we

[00:02:16] went from continual decline to turnaround. It was amazing and incredible. In both instances,

[00:02:24] it came from a detailed understanding of what is the truth or insight behind the customer.

[00:02:31] In fact, we've seen the risk I engaged Clinton's political strategist, Polster and I said

[00:02:36] we're going to run the turnaround of the sales list like running an election. We're going to set

[00:02:40] an election date and we're going to pull Tesco floating customers to work out what we would have

[00:02:46] to say to get them to come to the sales list and not to Tesco. The whole turnaround which was

[00:02:51] 10 years of decline and in February of 2005 we went to plus five and just in King then had 10

[00:02:59] years of growth. It all came from the insights of what do we need to do? With Pandora, it was the

[00:03:05] same just to keep summarized you know the company I'm sure most of you by the vote or given or

[00:03:09] received the charm they'd walked away from charms as the core that made them the biggest jewelry

[00:03:16] coming in the world because you have to buy five or six or seven. You don't have to buy five

[00:03:19] rings or five necklaces but they got distracted by all these other products. They felt that the

[00:03:24] fashion for them had disappeared and actually I went on to an Instagram site. On Instagram there

[00:03:32] was a whole lot of people who were buying 20 or 30 charms a month and then creating nice

[00:03:36] little Instagram posts and I put at DM saying could I have a chat to you? I'm the CEO Pandora

[00:03:42] I'd like to speak to you as a passionate supply or user. I had to say she came back to me and said

[00:03:47] go away weirdo, you know I don't believe you or the CEO. So I had to say no no go on Google I

[00:03:52] had the CEO look at my name and then we had a chat and she told me for example two

[00:03:56] several things she and another insight was that we were promoting so heavily that the passion

[00:04:03] core heavy buyers were losing interest in faith and actually also just saying right we'll wait

[00:04:08] to the promotion comes but the core thing is the people who really made the brand the big buyers

[00:04:13] were losing faith in us because we were chasing the float of you know they the transient buyer

[00:04:19] with promotions and therefore in that example for example we cut promotions by 40% and saw the

[00:04:25] business grow which is completely no kind of intuitive. So those companies are going under some

[00:04:29] of them are structurally not relevant anymore but lots of times they've just not changed anything

[00:04:36] and they just hope that things look better as opposed to radical change if required.

[00:04:41] Yeah so it kind of goes back to my previous point of standing still being a really a dangerous

[00:04:45] thing to do and we said disrupting you know disrupt yourself is a better place than being disrupted.

[00:04:50] Yeah absolutely yeah it is a case of disruptor be disrupted isn't it it's it's retail

[00:04:55] Darwinism. You touched on the customer and how different everyone in this room is in terms of

[00:05:01] style and hair styles and I think customer needs generally are becoming highly individualized

[00:05:06] and we can't put customers into neat little boxes like we used to be able to but just for the

[00:05:11] sake of this question we're going to try. We should because I'll tell you there's a strange paradox.

[00:05:16] Okay okay no you go ahead then. The paradox is in all the data I've seen that at the very

[00:05:22] time we're becoming atomized I like that word because you know we are totally individual in

[00:05:29] everything we do and you could look at if I looked at all your TikTok you are on TikTok or Instagram

[00:05:34] every one of you be looking at different stuff. At the same time when we then say let's try and

[00:05:39] segment people we find you do cluster we all cluster and actually one of the most shocking examples

[00:05:45] of that was when I was in the 11th in the room which was the CEO of the body shop in 2013 just

[00:05:50] 2017. Do you set it? I did right that I should let's get the sales started to decline worldwide

[00:05:56] in 60 countries in the same way and it was like custom money. People talking on social media how

[00:06:03] can every country be declining? Well we had put some prices up in a way we hadn't observed

[00:06:09] and customers around the world were responding in the same way so we are at the same time atomized

[00:06:13] and at the same time still hoodie in segments and it's trying to work out are you in the hoodie

[00:06:18] bit and the segments or are you atomized and that's what we have to try and balance. Yeah absolutely

[00:06:24] but I guess I guess just for the sake of the question like I'd say broadly speaking how have you seen

[00:06:30] customer expectations evolve what are the most notable changes that you've witnessed in terms

[00:06:34] of shopping behavior? You know I think we all there's three that I think are important. The first

[00:06:40] one is we all want more convenience and the convenience that we want we're never satisfied with

[00:06:48] as we get things like Wi-Fi on planes and then it suddenly doesn't work but what the hell's happened

[00:06:54] to the Wi-Fi for the sake? And even Wi-Fi on the plane you know that because the technology is incredible

[00:06:58] by the way I've just stolen that from a comedian so I just tell you that but nonetheless it is a truth

[00:07:04] that you know our intolerance is continual and therefore we have to be continually finding more

[00:07:09] more convenient solutions if we want to engage people. I think the other thing is that we are both

[00:07:16] wanting new things and we get bored with the new things quicker than ever before so the idea that we can

[00:07:24] just do something and then it's going to be fine for the next two years whether it's a store

[00:07:28] design an e-commerce site the the PLP page they copy we write the video we put on there all of that

[00:07:34] we have to continually say it can have a lifetime of actually let me just tell you after this I'm

[00:07:42] running out of the room I'm getting the airport I'm flying the Dublin to do a speech and doing a

[00:07:46] speech to a company that builds data centers for Amazon and Netflix they're telling me that their data

[00:07:52] centers used to last for four years before they have to rebuild them and now because of

[00:07:58] nevidia and AI they are only lasting 18 months so the speed with which even thing like building a

[00:08:05] data center have to be unbuilt and therefore what we're doing is just accelerating and that's why

[00:08:10] we have to go faster and that's why we call this you know acting fast yeah absolutely and you touched

[00:08:17] on convenience which I think is absolutely true I think is consumers you know we get used to the

[00:08:22] next new shiny thing and then we just want the next new shiny thing and it just is perpetual isn't it

[00:08:28] but I guess at the same time sustainability is a concern and I know with your work in cantar

[00:08:34] this is something that you're very close to and I just wonder what are you seeing from a consumer perspective

[00:08:41] obviously we I think we've seen a little bit of a depriorization of green purchases because of the

[00:08:46] cost-of-living crisis but it feels like it is firmly back in the agenda and that customers want to

[00:08:50] make better choices they want to buy products that are better for the environment they don't always

[00:08:54] want to make sacrifices whether that's convenience or cost what are you seeing in this space so

[00:09:00] let me share some data because you know with cantar we've got the world's biggest data tracking

[00:09:05] company we've got data across every country in the world on this subject and the the common story

[00:09:11] is the country by country by country category by category category 68 or percent of people say they

[00:09:17] want to buy sustainably sustainable products but on average of course all its countries and all

[00:09:22] this categories 28 percent of people say at the point of purchase they actually do and when we

[00:09:29] ask well why is there a gap the number one reason or the three reasons actually the number one is

[00:09:34] a perception that the price is more expensive for the sustainable product than the non-sustainable

[00:09:40] and frankly I want a big mission on this subject because what's happening is manufacturers believe

[00:09:47] that they have the right and I'm choosing my words carefully here and slowly because I want

[00:09:51] to label it with you all hit you with it they have the right to charge a premium on a product

[00:09:57] that's sustainable versus the non-sustainable product that is wrong what I'm championing now through

[00:10:05] cantar is that every FMCG company has to start with what I'm called price match pricing your starting

[00:10:12] position is that a sustainable product should be priced at exactly the same price as your non-sustainable

[00:10:18] product because if you don't do that our price elasticity shows that people will not pay a premium

[00:10:24] unless the differences are substantial and you can make the difference it says that you know we can say

[00:10:29] is the most beautiful example of a sustainable product with different benefits but most you know

[00:10:35] hard to see or not value them up so start with price match pricing yes you might say you're

[00:10:41] costahier but they're work on cutting your costs or looking at other benefits you can bundle in

[00:10:47] so that the resurgestification if you need to put a price up that's really interesting and I think

[00:10:52] also the lack of transparency is potentially a barrier from a customer point of view as well because

[00:10:57] you know as customers we're so informed when it comes to things like pricing and reviews and product

[00:11:01] information but actually we're kind of fumbling in the dark when it comes to sustainability

[00:11:04] so there's the second two reasons that they give for not purchasing a number one they can't find

[00:11:09] this sustainable product and then secondly they can't desagregate well what is sustainable about

[00:11:14] this product and can I read it can I see it can I finally do understand it so yeah I'm seeing

[00:11:18] right yeah interesting I want to ask one more question about sustainability and then I'm going to

[00:11:21] open it up to the floor um I thought it was really interesting from the BRC um manifesto they said

[00:11:28] that one third of every UK citizens carbon footprint comes from the goods that they buy so retail

[00:11:34] plays a vital role in helping to reduce emissions as a society now as the industry moves towards

[00:11:40] net zero over the next decade I'd love to know what you make of the progress that retailers have made

[00:11:47] in their sustainability efforts and what might help them to accelerate their plans for

[00:11:52] the carbonization I don't know if you know what I'm seeing as retailers are not that committed

[00:12:00] they are doing what is required but are they taking actions to be leaders I'm questioning

[00:12:07] obviously they actually have made me dependent on their their suppliers in some ways and the company

[00:12:12] that I'm most excited by at the moment and I and I think it's a benchmark reference is of all

[00:12:18] things for a margarine and if you've seen that as uh having been sold by Unilever they're run by

[00:12:24] private company and they've launched a couple of months ago a new completely non plastic

[00:12:30] cardboard packaging that's going to be on their two billion products now that's the first time I've

[00:12:35] really seen a fast moving consumer good completely replaced plastic with an alternative that's

[00:12:40] price match and that seems to have the same performance I hope to be speaking to them probably tomorrow

[00:12:45] to talk about this but I'm not so sure if we've seen that much and I think it's important we say

[00:12:53] that so that we don't be too concoct like concrete regulatory we need to see more action and

[00:13:00] my view on this subject is that politicians are not going to save this planet it is companies

[00:13:08] that are going to do it consumers aren't because they're going to follow and they want to make

[00:13:11] decisions are point of purchase around price and convenience and what makes their life simple and

[00:13:16] easy therefore it's people in this room it's all of us as leaders in companies that are going to

[00:13:20] save this planet by inventing solutions like for a and others and that's what I would

[00:13:25] request of you inspire you and challenge you to take that mental I'm very passionate about

[00:13:29] this subject and the rain has made me even more passionate fantastic great this feels like a good

[00:13:35] time to open up two questions does anyone have a question for Jeremy at this point we've got one

[00:13:40] right here I think if we could just sorry if we could just wait for a microphone

[00:13:46] what are you coming from behind you behind you the gentleman behind you hello is it on yes

[00:14:03] and so I really really liked that term at treacle meetings and I think that probably a lot of people

[00:14:10] in this room have treacle meetings and generally the reason why we have that is because senior

[00:14:17] directors people have been there for a long time obviously have their opinions and their wisdom

[00:14:23] and I think you said quite eloquently but what you do is you come back that with data

[00:14:29] but I was a conference last year and some months ago to yourself said their advice to

[00:14:37] like two businesses and companies is going find the youngest people in their organization

[00:14:43] listen to them and promote them to the top so so data is one way of kind of getting your change

[00:14:50] through but what do you actually do the treacle is still there how do you how do you fight

[00:14:55] to the treacle and how do you kind of flip this because as I say everything is innovating so fast we

[00:15:01] need to be looking at the young people to kind of understand what we need to do so thank you for

[00:15:06] your fantastic question I'm going to give you two answers to very very concrete things you can

[00:15:12] so laurel which is the world's biggest cosmetic company 40 billion turnover grows at

[00:15:18] a bit dark every single year in every important meeting the boss whether it's a CEO whether it's

[00:15:27] me not being important but you know in my level the first person we turn to in a meeting

[00:15:32] is to the youngest person and we say look we're discussing this what's your point of view

[00:15:38] and then we work at the hierarchy now the reason we do this is for two three reasons the first

[00:15:43] is because we want to hear the views of young people who I believe fundamentally bring us fresh

[00:15:49] dynamic unimpaired thoughts and we need to listen more than ever because they're more connected

[00:15:55] even the second thing is it gives teachers them and trains them how to participate in thinking

[00:16:01] but the third reason which we've never expressed but I can tell you the truth it gives me is the

[00:16:04] boss time to get mine into the best thinking I possibly can because I nick everybody's good

[00:16:09] ideas and then represent them as mine so that's so to answer your question actually the answer

[00:16:16] is a lot on the boss's shoulders to change so that's point one because I speak you know one of

[00:16:21] the things I tell you know most leadership team audiences who I in a mainly speak to is something

[00:16:27] I put in place in Pandora and was transformational which is I looked up myself and said

[00:16:32] bosses have this belief that we should be the gatekeeper in meetings people come to the meeting

[00:16:39] to ask permission and I'm the gatekeeper I stand on high and I give my performance what happens

[00:16:45] if I reverse my role and actually I put myself at the bottom of my triangle and my whole objective is to

[00:16:51] shut up and my only role is to empower or remove problems that my teams come and tell me that they are

[00:17:01] seeking to have a solution to and therefore they're only role in the meeting is to bring me the problem

[00:17:06] that they can't solve they need me to arbitrate or make a point on but other than that

[00:17:11] I don't talk and they don't come we just thought they'd come with things that need to be act on

[00:17:16] that dramatically changed the efficiency of the meetings the role of the meetings the speed of

[00:17:20] decisions the empowerment and therefore I think as in our job we need to reinvention of the role

[00:17:25] of bosses and the role of meetings so that we can go quicker would you like to try that I would like

[00:17:31] you know the thing with these two thoughts is please go and try them and test them because they work

[00:17:36] and number two it could create a revolution your company with two really quite small ideas

[00:17:42] okay great any other questions at this point

[00:17:47] by the way I'm completely and only here for you so please use this chance you know if you don't agree

[00:17:52] with me or you want to add a build you know speak up because we're here friends together for you

[00:17:57] know 30 minutes and so on to make the most so don't hold back because it's for your advantage

[00:18:01] if I can help is that on can you hear me so I was thinking about the way that

[00:18:08] big companies use data and why they collect it and especially thinking back to your experience at

[00:18:14] sales嬌ís and whether I think our opportunities for people to do much more for the customer

[00:18:23] with the data so I was speaking with a supermarket in Scandinavia where they collect similar kinds

[00:18:33] of data to test goes and sales嬌ís here but the way they use it is much more innovative so they

[00:18:40] would say to somebody for example within the loyalty program we've looked at your basket that

[00:18:48] you're shocked for this week and looked at all the products that you're interested in that

[00:18:53] you like to buy and if you substituted product x for product y you would have a better carbon footprint

[00:19:04] for example so serving that data back to the customer in really useful ways that could make a

[00:19:10] difference than which makes sense you're certain so do you see that as an area where companies

[00:19:17] here could do much more because it seems to me often the data is only looked at in terms of how

[00:19:24] can we drive more sales how can we make more money rather than how can we help the customer

[00:19:29] so I think I've got three responses from my experience so you know what I felt when I was

[00:19:35] both a year of the body shop and Pandora was I had as retailers we have for normal volumes of

[00:19:42] data and you can imagine every single transaction and every single store every single minute my

[00:19:46] every single customer and my big grapple was how can I get insight from this in fact in 2018

[00:19:53] I made a program for BBC in business called retail's AI Revolution where I wanted to expose

[00:20:00] and to express how AI even in 2018 was being used by retailers powerfully to both

[00:20:07] internalize the data but also bring chat and the various tools to the consumer but my first

[00:20:13] problem was how can I have the expertise to actually just find me in sites or patterns actually

[00:20:19] I was looking for patterns within the data and I first of all would say that journey has not finished

[00:20:25] for anybody and AI and there's coming in America I've been using call pattern recognition you know

[00:20:31] is one of the tools to help unlock it it's not exclusively but it says that's my first point

[00:20:37] my second point is that you know to find those ideas my experience you've got to start with this idea

[00:20:45] of hypothesis because data itself tells you nothing and if you crack it into segments it will tell

[00:20:50] you just what it sees you got to start by saying I wonder if I could find a way of substituting

[00:20:57] a product and would the data help me do that and therefore the third part to actually using data

[00:21:03] is also still speaking to humans because I find when you speak to humans they tell you the weird stuff

[00:21:10] they may not even tell you it can be the stores you know store a colleague or an e-con colleague

[00:21:16] I go to them and say tell me something to surprise me I did that in the middle of New Zealand in

[00:21:20] the store in the middle of New Zealand as there for one day terrible for carbon but I had to

[00:21:23] discover some store checks and they told me something to surprise me said this product

[00:21:27] is always out of stock and I rang up the head off of the separation guides about three o'clock

[00:21:32] in the morning saying man why is this product always that so you know it's been out of stock for

[00:21:35] three months of forecast or always wrong as if all they always wrong is it will be no

[00:21:40] he's taking any notice of the fact that it's always selling out and we then try to find out why

[00:21:45] I'm found that Chinese person has written a blog saying this product stock tell us and every

[00:21:49] Chinese in every country near every store where they were at students are working where they're

[00:21:53] just buying all this product so I wouldn't have found that I should have found that through the data

[00:21:58] somebody should have bought it but actually bringing the human aspect to the hypothesis to the data

[00:22:04] are these the way to find those opportunities so an answer to your question yes there are huge

[00:22:08] amounts of opportunity how you get that I think is the interesting question to be exploring as

[00:22:15] I'm just trying to give you three examples does that answer question more let's take that

[00:22:23] there's a green as my scorecards sorry say something what do we want to do with our days

[00:22:36] that they want to better serve the customer rather than always looking at it in a very commercial

[00:22:42] way yes yes well I think it comes back to the very thesis of this speech which and

[00:22:48] discussion which is transforming insight into action the objective I think of that would be

[00:22:56] to drive sales in the end yeah I mean if you're going to switch somebody they're going to then

[00:22:59] be more happy they're going to come by for you so it is switching sales but it's trying to find

[00:23:05] those insights that leads to opportunities that them will result in sales and my proposition to

[00:23:11] you is that you've got to start with an attitude of hypothesis and wondering and curiosity as

[00:23:18] opposed to I know the answer just give it to me or the data is what the data say you've got

[00:23:23] a drill into I can talk more about drilling into data in a minute I'll let somebody else ask

[00:23:28] question and come back to that I think well take one more question just here so my question is

[00:23:35] a follow up to what you were saying earlier about decarbonization and how retailers really are

[00:23:42] dependent on their suppliers and so obviously you know in the there manufacturing base substituting

[00:23:47] lower impact materials or promoting energy efficiency or decarbonization in the factories this is

[00:23:52] great but it can really only take you so far in terms of decarbonization and so a lot of people have

[00:23:57] been talking about the need to reinvent retail business models and not for more circular opportunities

[00:24:04] but I haven't seen that many that are really working and they're expensive to invest in

[00:24:09] and so I'm just curious what you're seeing or kind of what your prediction might be in terms of

[00:24:14] how businesses can do this effectively. I think there's three ways what couple of ways I'm

[00:24:22] going to answer I think the first one is the inertia of consumers driven by our love of convenience

[00:24:30] that we've been educated so brilliantly on the last 50 years means that for the majority

[00:24:38] and not the eco group that are small but growing everywhere. So taking a snapshot today is not

[00:24:45] a good answer to a snapshot in a year or even two years because that group and it we are we'll

[00:24:51] show many of us that group not the dedicated level will grow and by the way without it

[00:24:56] our I believe that as floods increase in Dubai as we've just seen here etc we are going to react more

[00:25:04] aggressively either as consumers or regulators or companies because we're going to we're seeing

[00:25:09] first-hand what's happening but to overcome the inertia is tough. However we are seeing a lot of

[00:25:15] exciting initiatives that are working and I think the resale and reuse of fashion clothing particularly

[00:25:22] the luxury reselling is very exciting and I got involvement in a couple of those businesses so where

[00:25:28] the value proposition means that people are willing to do it I think we can see a definite

[00:25:33] interest in them. I think we've been talking a lot to a particular entrepreneur who has got an idea

[00:25:40] which is done they actually did it for John Lewis which is a circular purchase where you purchase

[00:25:44] the clothing but you get a price told you on your app as to the value on return so that you get

[00:25:51] a data digital driven value for returning and I think these models will improve but they do feel

[00:26:00] less convenient and therefore I think it's going to be the opinion leaders who lead it and then

[00:26:06] potentially many of us or other of us will follow over time. I think the speed with which that change

[00:26:11] can occur should accelerate and concerned about the negativity towards EVs in Britain that's happening

[00:26:19] at the moment due to a lack of infrastructure due to some negative sound whites about the

[00:26:24] volume of plant rubber coming off the tires etc but when I see what China is doing to drive for

[00:26:30] example EVs and some of these initiatives I think momentum is there but it probably is not going as

[00:26:36] fast as it's true that we want it to be honest. It's up to us and I'm not even perfect by

[00:26:43] long way too I know my behaviour is not following my own words to the level that I would like it

[00:26:50] when convenience calls. I don't know that. Great. We have about 10 to 15 minutes left so

[00:27:02] I have a... Is this all working people? I would like to check. Yes, is it helpful? Yeah.

[00:27:07] Perfect. All right I'm going to come back to my question and then we'll come back to the audience

[00:27:11] so you know keep thinking of anything else you might want to ask Jeremy you just touched on AI and

[00:27:16] I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on any particular trends or innovations that are exciting

[00:27:22] you right now when we think about the future of retail obviously AI and generative AI is going to

[00:27:27] transform the way that we shop but it's going to transform the way that retailers operate

[00:27:32] but whether it's AI or any other technologies is there anything out there that's exciting you right now?

[00:27:36] Well I'm very excited about it. I'm at a very personal level as I'm sure all of you are

[00:27:41] are completely excited by chatGBT I'm sure all of you Gemini I'm sure you're using it all the time

[00:27:46] yes are you actually just gonna raise who's using chatGBT daily let's say you know I

[00:27:54] just I've worked for one second. I have actually believed strongly that AI and I argued this back in 2018

[00:28:00] I argued it with the CEO of IBM will still jobs and when they used to say to me yes

[00:28:06] it's going to solve the world's problems that was the line that deep mind and IBM and all

[00:28:10] everybody said oh it's going to solve the world problems is like yeah this is going to take away

[00:28:13] thousands and thousands of jobs I think that's still true but I am myself encouraged how chatGBT

[00:28:20] is it doing what they say is improving my work life it is making me better than just search

[00:28:27] and so the large amounts of AI that are just going to be helpful in a positive way without the

[00:28:31] room in jobs so let me give you the examples where I feel we need it and where I felt we need it

[00:28:37] is on first of all merchandising on an e-com to present better the choices that I'm looking for

[00:28:46] in large volume fashion e-com sites for example or beauty sites I've still feel that we're

[00:28:55] relatively dark ages in presenting to me individually what I probably want from either my historic

[00:29:01] search of the search that I'm doing particularly around sizing I don't shouldn't have to go and put

[00:29:07] my size in any more it should know me so I think AI is still as a huge role on e-com to anticipate

[00:29:14] what I want better I think you know back in 2018 we were predicting or wanting that AI would mean

[00:29:21] that Amazon et al would send I would give them my calendar I would load my Microsoft calendar

[00:29:31] into my e-com site and they would send me things that I needed before I knew that I wanted them

[00:29:38] because they could see what I was doing so they would see I'm going on holiday and they would say

[00:29:42] well we're going to send you these five things we think they'll be useful based on what we know of you

[00:29:46] if you like them pay for them if you don't you can return them so ideally there is still a great

[00:29:52] opportunity to make my life more convenient and anticipate what I want using AI in that way but the final

[00:30:00] one and that's again I'm going to compliment this gentleman here because we sat next to each other

[00:30:04] and it was very much where I felt and he's working on is the in store and basic supply chain

[00:30:11] operations there's just huge potential to make the lives of store colleagues or supply chain

[00:30:18] colleagues or operation colleagues just better because they would have the technology whether it's

[00:30:25] a blend of AI or just handheld technology and scanning technology to be able to stop tape the price

[00:30:30] to change store layouts with speed and ease and less hassle that I see is still a problem

[00:30:39] in the manual let's call them working areas which don't and have not been given the tools

[00:30:44] to their jobs really when they're also having their jobs cut lots of them or huge pressure on

[00:30:49] their time yeah so interesting I think you know AI is going to touch every aspect of the value

[00:30:55] chain you know from product I coming up with the ideas for the product all the way through to

[00:31:01] you know post consumption and returns so are really fascinating stuff actually is there any

[00:31:06] ideas that you guys have got that would be good for everybody here anybody want to throw an

[00:31:11] idea in the AI will contribute do you think yes there's a gentleman I think is that you mind by just

[00:31:16] do that just for me no go for it I'm sure there's a rich thought here and I don't believe

[00:31:23] hang on there's a microphone coming let's just so we've got the time just there

[00:31:27] yeah so we're kind of doing it using AI to help people choose their food basket

[00:31:33] so that through using DNA and epigenetics as well so that way they're choosing the right food

[00:31:38] for them and also reducing food waste and also helping their health and well being so you load your

[00:31:44] Zoe data profile oh don't say that swear no we have our own system which is far better okay

[00:31:52] this is an advertising plug bridge and I'm trying to break so I actually think that food waste

[00:31:58] is one of the biggest impacts on the environment as well and also obviously it's from a sustainability

[00:32:04] point of view so actually by empowering people to make the right food choices for them both

[00:32:08] on my health and from a sustainability point of view using AI will have a huge massive impact

[00:32:15] the other interesting dichotomy though is a more we use AI the carbon footprint from that is

[00:32:22] it is and you talked about EVs no what I had meeting with somebody about it's weird beacork

[00:32:29] they were saying just by swapping from using blue color ink in your emails to black if you

[00:32:35] were using blue that has a massive impact on the environmental footprint of the email yeah

[00:32:41] so I think you know sometimes technology is great but you've also got a bear in mind behind the scenes

[00:32:47] the environmental impact of a lot of it is enormous yeah you know I just want to say one point on

[00:32:53] that I noticed that for every good step we make forward in sustainability all these initiatives

[00:33:00] there is a danger that I'm going to call them the cynics or whoever will put out a counterpoint

[00:33:05] I'm not saying yourself because it's true about data centers but you know we always have the yes

[00:33:09] but and there's a yes but with petrol there's a yes but without existing environment but there's

[00:33:15] a love of doing a yes but on some of these initiatives so you're up to you right that AI does generate

[00:33:20] huge huge issues and that we did send us but we've got to have still be moving forward positive

[00:33:25] intent otherwise we'll talk ourselves out of every one of these sustainable initiatives it's my

[00:33:29] fear yeah thank you you're input anyway next right so we have or down to the final minutes now

[00:33:38] but I want to ask you a little bit about loyalty and the proliferation of choice that we've seen

[00:33:45] when it comes to shopping generally but if we look specifically at ecommerce we've seen an

[00:33:50] explosion in digital channels in recent years marketplaces direct a consumer

[00:33:57] quick commerce social commerce I think you said you're on TikTok right yeah there we go so I

[00:34:03] guess personally what do you make of this proliferation and how do you see ecommerce evolving in the

[00:34:08] future well look I think that I'm not saying anything profound at all if you don't know

[00:34:16] but in this assumption that the three things that drives most of what we want is a fallback cost

[00:34:24] something to do with price something to do with disposability let's call it comfort with a brand

[00:34:31] or a product or that's trust and finally and most importantly this desire for convenience

[00:34:37] that the fact that I have had to remove TikTok even though I got a channel because I spent one and

[00:34:42] half hours every night on the damn thing the ability to be presented a product that I didn't know

[00:34:48] that I really wanted in my Instagram or TikTok feed and be able to purchase it so simply

[00:34:54] was extremely helpful so my disposability my loyalty to those channels because they are actually

[00:35:00] presenting me products increased because they solve problems I either had or didn't know I had

[00:35:06] so I think that those new ways and the reason I mentioned this sales TikTok live

[00:35:13] sales of vehicle is it's a big element of ecommerce in China because ecommerce has got

[00:35:20] in some ways humanless and that's why probably we're still going back to stores and genzids are

[00:35:24] because of the sociability or just the human type and actually now having Instagram and TikTok live

[00:35:30] as a sales vehicle and advertising vehicle is growing and I believe we'll be another technology that

[00:35:36] we need so this isn't the very profound statement I would say or those are going to grow ecommerce

[00:35:41] in spite of the Daldrums and many I believe will continue to grow because of our local

[00:35:47] convenience because of the choice and because retailers are some of the most struggle to get the

[00:35:53] choice that people are wanting will continue to grow. So sort of just the natural evolution.

[00:35:58] I believe it's on a real let's go. Whether it's Amazon that wins all the games or

[00:36:02] boohoo and a source that can recover we shall see but my pen is worth is that it will continue to grow.

[00:36:10] Yeah and off the news. By the way so I just say one thing I noticed on this subject you know we are

[00:36:15] quite rightly sad that you know the body shot and others are going down and when we walk around

[00:36:21] our high streets so many stores are closing and being replaced by the restaurants which is probably

[00:36:26] or charity which is questionable perhaps. When you look at villages they used to have and I

[00:36:33] remember as a kid where I grew up there was a butcher there was a post office it shows all time

[00:36:38] but there were all these things they're all homes it is evolution and we've had it for 100 years

[00:36:45] as there's been concentration and closure. I suspect it's just going to continue as horrible

[00:36:49] and as painful as that is it may be replaced by restaurants and other things but I suspect the

[00:36:54] impact of e-commerce will continue to hurt retail even if we do love the sociability and the

[00:37:02] proximity and the human touch. Yeah my fewer better stores is probably the way it's something up.

[00:37:08] I just want to ask you one final question about loyalty which we started to touch on.

[00:37:12] There's been a lot of investment in digitizing loyalty schemes in recent years. We've seen the

[00:37:17] rise of real-time discounts and somewhat controversial member prices so I'm curious to know what you

[00:37:24] make of this and do you think these in order to make us more loyal or does it actually have the

[00:37:29] opposite effect to make us more promiscuous? Okay I'm going to be hands-on I don't have the data

[00:37:35] to answer that question on whether it is more promiscuous or more loyal. What I see are

[00:37:42] yeah okay but what I first have seen in all the businesses is that loyalty has been an incredibly

[00:37:48] powerful tool but and this is a big part. I'm going to finish on an insight here.

[00:37:54] Both with the turnaround of Pandora and with a business I'm even

[00:38:00] consulting on just yesterday the big are harpy sub-data that can be transformative for you if you

[00:38:06] want to help with your socioclient is to break down the numbers of people who buy just one product

[00:38:14] the numbers who buy 20 or three the numbers you buy five or 10 and the numbers you buy 20.

[00:38:18] It follows on the whole in 80 to 20 rule plus or minus that actually 20% of your customers actually

[00:38:25] buy 80% of your volume. What we spend all our effort on is chasing this huge tail of 80%

[00:38:32] of the people who buy one product because they are so volumous. Most retailers and most companies

[00:38:38] don't look at that breakdown and so they don't see an impandora what I discovered was that 80%

[00:38:44] of women were buying 20 or 30 charms and we did not have a laltis scheme in a product that

[00:38:52] was all about collecting and those group were the ones making us all the money it was the same

[00:38:57] incess to the same business. So in fact the role of loyalty or the way to think about it whether you

[00:39:02] have a product or not is track down what those people are doing and serve them and be careful

[00:39:08] you're not chasing the single buyer who will use a volume energy all your costs but bring you

[00:39:12] finalist value. So I believe in all the 100% and these tools can all work if they target it

[00:39:18] particularly that group. Yeah focusing on your most valuable customers. I'm not going to let you go just

[00:39:22] here. I think we have time for one more question from the crowd if there's any other burning questions

[00:39:27] about there. We've got one in the corner just here. Thank you for your patience by the

[00:39:34] wait and time. I appreciate the attention you've given in the ideas. Hi there. You speak about the

[00:39:40] yes but and obviously sticky meetings and you know our job is working is so aspirational and

[00:39:49] I think in and I'm trying to work out the question here but for the unit levers of the world

[00:39:53] for the co-curlers of the world and even the laurels of the world I think you know a humble brand

[00:39:58] manager brand director really want to do that. You know they want to have a way of being able

[00:40:06] to work with the machine to do some of these. Have you actually seen it work? Have you seen if we

[00:40:12] were advising a brand director within an ecosystem like you, Lever, to get hold of the data to

[00:40:18] come up with a hypothesis and actually see it through. Do you have examples of how that's been

[00:40:23] done and then how you know you could advise within that ecosystem? Yes the wrench, the phone

[00:40:33] caught by the cops in 19 2000 on about September 15 I think it was from my boss was

[00:40:46] over my dead body Jeremy are you going to launch that product? That was a guy who being in

[00:40:54] the Coca-Cola company for 30 years he was in charge of Europe which was a 200 billion power

[00:40:59] business and I've been working on Coke Zero as an idea. More money I got data to show that

[00:41:06] young men in Europe would dramatically increase their consumption if we presented that product

[00:41:12] versus the red or Coca-Cola because we discovered that the reason that young men started to drink

[00:41:17] less in Europe than in the US was because strangely surprisingly psychologically the red label of Coke

[00:41:26] made them think that they were a kid again and in front of their adult friends and themselves they

[00:41:31] didn't want to look like a kid they wanted to drink alcohol and coffee and look adult like and

[00:41:35] that crazy insight that if we made a product in black and called it Coke Zero in the since

[00:41:41] as I gave it a benefit we could talk to young men and add what turns out to be 10 billion sales

[00:41:47] revenue per year was something that he rejected because he was frightened of innovation he was frightened

[00:41:54] of change he was trying to risk what I believe but you have to decide to do this is that we have

[00:42:01] a responsibility to have a point of view on something to champion it with like a crusade and

[00:42:08] a commitment if you believe it's right and got data and then it's a case of getting it in

[00:42:12] front of the right people and most intelligent bosses are desperate for ideas to improve the business

[00:42:19] in fact what they're short of is great ideas they usually have the money they usually have

[00:42:24] the resources they just lack some brilliant ideas so in my experience but the riserisc I did

[00:42:30] have that boss say that to me and the only way I survived and got it was that he was fired by the

[00:42:37] CEO two weeks later because he'd been blocking innovation which I got in front of the CEO it does

[00:42:43] mean you sometimes you know have to play a little bit of the politics and so on to get it to the right

[00:42:46] people so it's not without risk or personal risk but intelligent bosses when presented well

[00:42:54] simply good ideas fact based you know should be smart enough to see that that's worth backing

[00:43:00] and if they're not intelligent then probably change company. On that note I think we are out of time

[00:43:07] but I just want to say thank you it's been fascinating to get your views thank you Jeremy.

[00:43:11] Thank you.